“Truly I say to you, this generation shall not pass until all these things take place.” (Mat 24.34)
Short response:
Which definition of “generation” (γενεὰ) was being used? In this case it would be a matter of “family” or “stock,” not a matter of time periods. This is the same usage of the phrase, “this generation,” used moments before in Mat 23.36 when referring to the corrupt leaders of Judah in the context of Mat 23.33 where they are called a “brood” or “generation” (KJV) of vipers with their (spiritual) father the devil (John 8.44), and sons of those who murdered the prophets Mat 23.31. They are a collective spiritual family/generation going back to the time of Cain and Abel in verse 35 — and into the future including those who take the spiritual mark/name of the false messiah who the spirit of Satan will enter. Christ includes them together when He says to them about the righteous ones from Abel to Zechariah, “whom YOU murdered,” which was long before their time as individuals, but as a generation/family of spiritual sons of wickedness they are included and will be judged when they are sentenced at Gehenna/Valley of Hinnom (“hell” per KJV) and cast into the Dead Sea when it is in flames again (See: The Lake of Fire: Where Is it Located?), as it was in ancient times, at the end of the millennial kingdom on earth at the second resurrection (Mat 23.33, Rev 20.10-15, Dan 7.9-10, etc).
Christ uses the same phrase, “this generation,” in Mat 24.34 when referring to the righteous sons while describing how things will become so dire in the great tribulation that it would appear there will be none left alive but they will not all pass away, and if those times had not been cut short (the 70th week cut in half to 3.5 years – Rev 12.12-17; Dan 7.25, 12.7, 9.27) there would be no flesh left, but for the elect’s sake the days will be cut short (Mat 24.22). See also 1Cor 15.51.
Longer discussion:
Many have fumbled over the interpretation of this statement in Mat 24.34 to indicate the timing of Christ’s return but it can be shown from the scriptures that Christ was not using it in this manner or to indicate that He would return in the generation of the first century to whom He was directly speaking to. Rather, it appears He was citing the beginning of a biblical verse (“This generation” – another example occurs on the cross when Christ recites the beginning of Psalm 22.1) which provides more information or revelation at the end of the future age with the sign of His coming as opposed to the end of the age the disciples were living in while the temple still stood followed by the time of the Gentiles in which we are now still living (cf. Luke 21.24).
The questions of the disciples in Mat 24.3 regarding the sign of Christ’s coming and the consummation of the age was asked in a way that shows the disciples thought Christ would set up His earthly kingdom at the end of their contemporary age after the temple would be destroyed as He had just mentioned would happen with no stone left upon another (ie, a desolation).
Acts 1.6 shows the disciples were still under this impression after Christ’s resurrection when they asked if He was then going to restore the kingdom to Israel just before being taken up from the Mount of Olives, but Christ told them, “It is not for you to know the times or seasons which the Father has set by His own authority” (Act 1.7), yet in Mat 24.32-33, Christ gave the specific signs by which they would be known. Therefore, Christ was clarifying to the disciples just before being taken to heaven that they would not live to see the signs of the end of the age before He returns (as opposed to some of them seeing the vision of His return on the Mount of Transfiguration fulfilling Christ’s statement in Mat 16.28), for if they did see the signs take place then they would know the times and seasons of His return. The disciples had not yet received a fuller understanding of these things as later taught in Peter’s second letter, and elsewhere in the New Testament.
Christ’s answer to the disciples in the Olivet Discourse provided information on both ages ending (one in 70 AD, one future, and perhaps even the end of the millennium mentioned in Mat 24.35-36, cf. Rev 21.1) which have overlapping details, including the temple and city to be destroyed by armies, but they also have differences: there was no idol/abomination in the holy place that led up to the desolation in 70 AD as there will be in the future per Mat 24.15 cf. Dan 11.31; 9.27; 12.11. (Note: many point to Antiochus IV Epiphanies’ desecration of the temple in the 2nd century BC as a fulfillment of some or all of Daniel’s prophecies of the abomination of desolation, however this cannot be the case, by definition, because there was never any desolation — a destruction to ruins — as a result of what this Gentile leader committed like there was with the first two desolations of the temple and city as a result of what the leaders of Judah committed.) Compare Matthew chapter 23 for the list of woes pronounced to the leaders of Judah by the Messiah — none of which describe an idol or abomination of desolation as a reason — leading up to the statement, “Behold, your house [ie, temple] is being left to you desolate!” (Mat 23.28). This temple desolation happened 40 years later, a trial period as in the wilderness which it had become without the Holy Spirit, in 70 AD.
Likewise, the future third temple destruction has similarities with the first destruction especially the surrounding events and details described by Ezekiel, including abominable idolatry even within the temple grounds leading to its desolation/ruin (Ezekiel 6.11-14 and Ch 8; cf Rev 13.14-15).
Now the Old Testament verse Christ cited in Mat 24.34 does not indicate the timing of His return, nor does the chapter it is found in, and it does not support the idea that it is referring to the generation in the first century when He spoke the words in Mat 24.34. Such time indicators or signs of the last generation are given in other statements Christ made including later statements from the apostles. These statements will not be the main focus here but rather it is the clarification of the statement, “This generation shall not pass..” (Mat 24.34).
The statement in Mat 24.34 refers to those who see all the things previously mentioned take place from verse 4 onward when Christ begins to answer the disciples, with the exception of when He describes the signs of His coming as the Son of Man after the signs preceding them have already passed, such as verses 27 and 30 (both describing the sign of Him already coming as also seen by Daniel) and verses 28 and 31 (both describing the resurrection and gathering together of the dead in Christ after He is already coming in the heavens in power and glory, cf 1Thes 4.16-17). These 4 verses are separated because they are addressing the separate question of “what will be the sign of your coming?” as opposed to “when will these things be” in reference to the destruction of the temple at the end of the age in 70 AD or even if applied to the future 3rd temple in Jerusalem at the end of the current age.
It’s important not to misplace verse 34 into the wrong category being answered of which there are 3, one of which could be divided into two (vis-a-vis two ages):
1) when will the temple be destroyed as mentioned in Mat 24.2; and
2) what will be the sign of Christ’s coming?; and
3) what will be the sign of the end of the age of which there were two left before Christ’s return: one when the 2nd temple was destroyed bringing in the time of the Gentles and one when the 3rd temple is destroyed ending the time of the Gentles bringing in the Messianic age or Millennial kingdom.
As previously stated, the disciples’ questions in Mat 24.3 regarding the sign of Christ’s coming and the consummation of the age was asked in a way that assumed Christ would set up His earthly kingdom at the end of their contemporary age after Herod’s temple would be destroyed:
“As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things [ie, the destruction of the temple buildings, see vv1-2] happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”” (Mat 24.3)
Acts 1.6 shows the disciples were still under the impression that these things would occur together in their own time.
It may be helpful to make a small diversion here from the main subject (clarification of Mat 24.34) to show that although at times Christ warns of the signs that the last generation would see speaking directly to the disciples (2nd person plural, cf Mat 24.33) who would not live to see them, and other times Christ refers to others indirectly (3rd person plural, cf Mat 24.16), He is actually speaking to the entire body of all believers as a whole, in the spirit, not compartmentalized and not limited to their own age or generation. This is clarified at the end of the Olivet Discourse as recorded in Mark 13.37: “What I say to you I say to all, Be on the alert.”
The two destructions have much in common leading up to them that many of the warnings could be applied to both cases, with the exceptions being the abomination of desolation and specific heavenly signs only applying to the latter age (some heavenly signs did occur leading up to the destruction in 70 AD as recorded by Josephus but they did not fulfill the ones Christ gave); for instance Luke 21.20-21 warns to flee Judea when armies are seen surrounding the city which applies to both ages. This is why the warnings Christ gave to the disciples were declared for all, not just those in their own time.
This concept is more plainly shown when we study how Christ addressed the leaders of Judah, just before the Olivet Discourse, as a spiritual body of rebellious sons that transcends the age or generational period they were living in and is even associated with the rebellious spirit of Cain who was the murderer from the beginning (Genesis) associated with the devil (John 8.44): “You [plural] are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.” This is speaking of their spiritual father as a spiritual generation (the seed of the serpent), as opposed to their ethnic father who was Abraham as shown in John 8.56.
Mat 23.35 gives us the key to understand:
“That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth/land, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, WHOM YOU SLEW between the temple and the altar.”
Those Christ was speaking to directly (in 2nd person plural) were not alive during the time of Abel or Zechariah and physically could not have physically killed them but Christ is speaking in the spirit and the prophecies in Matthew 23 and 24 are not just for the near future, 70 AD, but serve as a foreshadow until the prophecy is fulfilled to the utmost, including in the time of the great white throne after the second resurrection at the end the 1000 year kingdom (Rev 20), in the valley of Hinnom (Gehenna) outside the city. This biblical concept is crucial to understand.
In the next verse Christ contrasts the fate of the wicked sons to the righteous sons later in Mat 24.34, using similar language to address them both as the progeny of Jacob, yet of opposite generations spiritually: “Truly I say to you, all these things [verses 33-35, the guilt of murder from Abel forward up to the final judgement of Gehenna after the millennium described in Rev 20] will come upon this generation.” (Mat 23.36, cf Rev 18.24, Mat 23.37)
The ones Christ was speaking woes against in chapter 23 are spiritually one with their father the devil (John 8.44) just as all the wicked going back to Cain and into the future including those who take the name/mark of the Antichrist (in the renewed Sinai covenant marriage) in rebellion to God just as Cain also received a mark. They are a collective spirit that is not confined to space and time (cf 1John 4.3; 2Thes 2.7: see this post for an exposition on the mystery of lawlessness as the spirit of Satan working through his children) just as those who are of Christ’s spirit (also called the spirit of righteousness/piety, 1Tim 3.16) include Abel, the slain shepherd whose sacrifice God favored, all the way through to Zachariah, killed within the temple court, and into the future 144,000 remnant who are sealed with the Name of God in their foreheads (Rev 14.1).
“he who unites himself with the Lord is one with Him in spirit.” (1Cor 6.17)
Christ also told the wicked ones, “you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers. You serpents, you offspring [γεννήματα, KJV: generation] of vipers, how will you escape the judgement of Gehenna [ie, the Valley of Hinnom, the valley of the future judgement, cf Dan 7.9-10, 26-27; Mat 25.31-46; connected to Kidron Valley, Joel 3.12-14, Jer 31.40, etc, the wadi system feeding into the Dead Sea which will become the Lake of Fire when reignited as in ancient times, see this 1981 report by the late Ernest L. Martin for deep research on this subject]?” (Mat 23.31-33)
Now returning to Mat 24.34, it must be understood that the word “generation” may also refer to a race, family or quality of people, not necessarily a time period. Bauer-Danker Greek-English Lexicon for 1613 “γενεὰ” has entry 1. “those exhibiting common characteristics or interests, race, kind..” Thayer’s Greek Lexicon also says, “that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family.”
The Hebrew equivalent for generation is “דּוֹר” and is used in this sense according to Brown-Driver-Briggs’ (BDB) Hebrew-English Lexicon in Psalm 24.6 which reads:
“This generation that seeks Him, who seek your face — Jacob. Selah”
Although every English translation I have checked adds supplemental words to Psalm 24.6, like “This (is the) generation,” the Hebrew itself leaves out the words in parenthesis and is simply stated, “This generation” זֶה דּוֹר. Therefore, “this generation” refers to the lineage of Jacob and this is what Christ appears to be referring to in Matthew 24.34 rather than the time period of the generation of the disciples in the first century.
As Psalm 24 warns, only those descendants (or that generation) of Jacob receive blessing and righteousness who have clean hands, pure hearts and seek after God’s face, and they will stand in His holy place like priests before Him, cf Rev 1.6, 5.10, 20.6, as opposed to the descendants (or generation) who do not. There are two generations who descend from Jacob, just as there are two Israels, one spiritual, one fleshly, hence, “not all Israel is of Israel” (Rom 9.6; cf Jer 9.25, 4.4, 31.31-34, Rom 2.28-29, Php 3.3, Gal 6.15-16). This is why Psalm 24.3 asks “who” will ascend to God’s holy place upon His hill because there will be false ones (cf Rev 2.9, 3.9), just as it also asks “who” is the King of glory (vv 8, 10, naming YHWH Himself) as there will also be a false one.
Continuing to study Psalm 24 shows further links to allusions Christ made in the Olivet Discourse, for instance the next verse after referring to “this generation” states: “Lift up your gates, ye heads [LXX: princes], and be lifted up, ancient doors, that the King of glory may come in!” (Ps 24.7). These “doors” are also mentioned by Christ in the verse preceding the one in question: “so, you too, when you see all these things, know that it* is near at the doors” (Mat 24.33); *”it” or “she.”
Psalm 24.7 also speaks of “the King of glory” who is Christ as He is described by Christ in the sign of His coming “in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory” (Mat 24.30). This “power” accompanying the Son of Man in glory as King to inaugurate His kingdom on earth refers to His heavenly armies (also called “hosts”) glorified and are also mentioned in the context of this end of the age event in Ps 24.8,10:
“Who is the King of glory? YHWH strong and mighty, YHWH mighty in battle. […] Who is this King of glory? YHWH of armies, He is the King of glory. Selah.” (Ps 24.8,10). See also Ps 24.3-5, 132.9,16; Rev 19.1; Ps 24.1 = Rev 4.11; Ps 110, etc.
The heads (or chiefs) of the gates mentioned in Ps 24.7 refer to the gatekeepers of the ark (“ark” is variously masculine or feminine gender and is near the doors mentioned in Mat 24.33, see entry 727 in BDB Hebrew lexicon here; also see my 2016 video for deeper insight into this most holy mystery) and it was accompanied by the 7 priests before it blowing 7 horns with king David wearing an ephod (!) as a high priest king as described in 1Chronicles 15.23-29.
This foreshadows an event in heaven at the end of the age when the 7 angels blow the 7 horns when the King Messiah Yeshua (Jesus) as the high priest Melchizedek (the King of Righteousness) returns in glory to Zion. He will do so with His armies and holy ones (saints) to crush His enemies, reminiscent of the military campaign of Yehoshua (Joshua/Jesus) charged by the captain of the Lord’s army (archangel Michael, cf Josh 5.14) entering the promised land with the ark of the covenant with 7 priests blowing 7 horns on the 7th day with a shout destroying Jericho (Josh 6.16; cp 1Thes 4.16) conquering the land and destroying the wicked kings to set up the kingdom.
The covenant ark in heaven is described at the end of the age with its gates open prepared for battle, when the 7th horn is blown, and enter Zion: “And the seventh angel did sound, and there came great voices in the heaven, saying, ‘The kingdom of the world has become of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign to the ages of the ages!’” (Rev 11.15) “And the sanctuary/temple of God which is in heaven was opened [cf Ps 24.7]; and the ark of His covenant appeared in His sanctuary/temple, and there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder and an earthquake and great hail.” (Rev 11.19)
Now with this understanding of Mat 24.34 with Christ pointing His disciples to Psalm 24 in the midst of describing the sign of His coming at the end of the age where we see that the “generation” refers not to a period of time (the time of the disciples in this case) but rather to the generation of Jacob as an entire lineage, a different lesson can be explored from the statement, “This generation [ie, the descendants of Jacob] shall not pass until all these things take place,” in which case the logical corollary must mean that they will indeed pass after these things take place — either they perish or receive new bodies to eternal life not like the old generation.
This is a reminder that no matter how bad tribulations become before Christ’s second advent, there will still be a remnant who survive, and as Christ said, “Unless those days had been cut short (ie, 3 ½ years), no flesh would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect/chosen those days will be cut short.” (Mat 24.22).
These survivors include those described as a woman in travail who escape into the wilderness at that time for 3 ½ years (cf. Rev 12.6, 14; A deep study on Revelation 12 describing this period is in the post, The Woman of Revelation 12 and the War in Heaven).
This interpretation agrees with what Paul taught in his letters, that we will not all die but we will all be changed/transformed (1Cor 15.51) and also that our old self will be destroyed (Rom 6.6). Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable (1Cor 15.50). Christ said similar things to Nicodemus, that except a man be born again/born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God; unless a man is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God (John 3.3, 5).
This makes sense as even the heaven and earth will pass away and be replaced some day known only to the Father as Christ says in the very next 2 verses following this revelation (Mat 24.35-36; cf Rev 21.1), but His words which are spirit and truth and quickening will not pass away and are not perishable as the flesh is, and this passing away of an entire generation will first occur beginning with Jacob (“the time of Jacob’s trouble/distress” Jer 30.7), just as Jacob was first in receiving eternal life as a generation:
“because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who will render to each person according to his works: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; But to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Judean first and also of the Greek, but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Judean first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God.” (Rom 2.5-11)
In John 3.3, the term born “again” can also be translated as born from “above” (heavenly kingdom Jerusalem vs earthly kingdom, cp Deu 32.18) or born from the “beginning” (predestined in the Word/Logos in the beginning) and the Aramaic text can mean, “from the head/beginning/first/top/chief.” 1 Peter 1.2 greets the “elect/chosen in the foreknowledge of God the Father” which would refer to those “born from the beginning,” in the Word/Logos. In verses 3-5 Peter mentions being begotten again/from the beginning with an incorruptible inheritance (similar language used by Paul in 1Cor 15.50-54) reserved in heaven to be revealed in the last times (cf 1John 3.2) which were from the beginning, a new Genesis, which is in Christ who is the resurrection (John 11.25), the Alpha and Omega, Beginning and Ending, First and Last (Rev 1.8, 11, 21.6, 22.13). Amen.
The following is a discussion I had on a youtube video on the abomination of desolation, saved on 2021-08-15.
Sean Crippen
1 week ago
These things were fulfilled in the end times. The new testament writers spoke of their times as the last days, end times, even the final hour. Why do we believe the end times refers to us?
[…]
AllOtherNamesUsed
1 week ago
At first yes the apostles did think Yeshua was going to return in their day, but they later realized it would be far in the future. 2Peter shows this understanding and addresses the issue and he hints at it being 1000s of years away when he quotes how a day is like a thousand years to God, etc. But in a sense, yes they were living in the last days of their age and the beginning of a new age, just as the end of the year is also considered the last days which is Rosh Hashanah when the last trumpet is blown beginning the new year (new birth/resurrection).
Sean Crippen
1 week ago
@AllOtherNamesUsed Jesus himself told his followers that some of them would live to see him return. Do you believe he was wrong?
AllOtherNamesUsed
1 week ago (edited)
Solomon taught that things that happened before will come again, that’s why the first two descriptions of the temple destructions have some similarities and even both occurred on the 9th of Av. The future destruction likewise has some familiar details to both the previous destructions, but the one in 70 AD does not fulfill many details including no abominable image placed in the holy place described by Daniel and shown in Rev 13 placed by the false prophet, no false messiah claiming to be a God in the temple, no 10 kings giving him their authority and attacking Jerusalem with their armies, no composite kingdom made up of the previous kingdoms described by Daniel as shown in Rev 13, no 2 witnesses performing great signs and wonders vs the 2 beast appearing to performing similar actions, and on and on. Nevermind the earliest and best attested tradition dates the book of Revelation to the 90s AD, well after the 2nd temple was desolate and how Ireneaus, disciple under Polycarp who knew and was a disciple under St John discussed the future coming of the false messiah. Rev 1.19 says the things written are of the past, present and future. John was also taken in the spirit forward to the Lord’s day (1.10) so take that time context with the intro about the time being near (1.3). Christ said we know the time is near by knowing the parable of the fig tree and see it regrown (Yeshua cursed the fruitless tree and then entered the temple and told the leaders the kingdom is taken from them and given to a people bearing fruit, therefore when the temple ministry is back in operation we know the time is near, this is what the false prophet posing as Elijah is renewing as anticipated by the rabbis in Rev 13.) See the blog link atop my channel for deep studies on these things.
AllOtherNamesUsed
1 week ago
@Sean Crippen then He took the 3 pillar apostles to the mt and gave them a preview of what it would look like, His glory and the 2 witnesses appeared with a voice from heaven. Peter even references this event to make his case in 2Peter. Note that the gospels show that they saw this 6 days after He told them they would see it, ie, on the 7th day or 7th millennium as a day is as a 1000 years to the Lord.
Sean Crippen
1 week ago
@AllOtherNamesUsed You speak of the transfiguration in Matthew 16? If so, where on that occasion did he come in all his fathers glory, with his angels, repaying every man according to his deeds as v27 states?
Also, you miss where he told them to flee persecution (ch.10) but they would not reach all the towns in Jerusalem before he came.
Sean Crippen
1 week ago
@AllOtherNamesUsed I don’t know about all the details you mention, but history does record many of them.
You mention time context. How could it be that Daniel was told to seal his vision because it was far off (500 years?) but John was told the time is at hand (now more than 2000 years?) Time may be irrelevant to God but not to us. Why would he communicate to us in such a contradictory way? I don’t buy it.
AllOtherNamesUsed
0 seconds ago
@Sean Crippen “where on that occasion did he come in all his fathers glory, with his angels, repaying every man according to his deeds as v27 states?”
Where did He say they would also see the rewarding of deeds? Did He mention it? Yeah. Did he say they would see it? No.
Here’s what He told them: “Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.” (Mat 16.28 NAU)
As for His father’s glory (not sure why you say “all” His Father’s glory), clearly v2 refers to this as the transfiguration with his face shining as the sun and His raiment white as the light as well as the bright cloud (ie, the Holy Spirit/God’s glory) in v5. Sorry if that’s just not a good enough description according to everyones’ personal idea of the Father’s glory, but that’s consistent with God’s glory described in the bible and fulfills what He said they would see and that’s how He is described as appearing also in Revelation and again, Peter affirms this in his second letter (2Pe 1.16-18) whether or not everyone is satisfied with it.
“Also, you miss where he told them to flee persecution (ch.10) but they would not reach all the towns in Jerusalem before he came.”
Or perhaps you miss the point being made there (Mt 10.23) — simply put, they would not reach every city before dying and Christ’s coming will not be in their lifetimes. Perhaps you also missed v39 which hints at this, as does John 21.18-9 which Peter recalls in 2Pe1.14 and makes very clear, leaving no room for making the mistakes you persistently pursue despite nearly 2000 years of hindsight now.
“I don’t know about all the details you mention, but history does record many of them.”
Please cite these many historical records and where they describe the events in question. [Note: no sources were ever provided to back up this big claim at the time of this note, 2022-01-14]
“How could it be that Daniel was told to seal his vision because it was far off (500 years?) but John was told the time is at hand (now more than 2000 years?)”
Dan 12.10 doesn’t say seal the vision because it was “far off” but refers to the “end” when describing the things that will happen at that time including unprecedented trouble, deliverance of those written in the book (of life), resurrection, glorified saints, and recapitulates the expected abomination that makes desolate set up and the taking away of the daily sacrifice — this is the same period John was taken to see in the spirit in Revelation 1.10 called the Lord’s day which is still future to us. So in that future time context when the events describe are taking place we know the time is near and He comes quickly/swiftly, like a thief in the night to those who are in the dark (cf 1Th 5).
Sorry but there’s no contradictions and I’m not buying your loaded questions designed to give the appearance of problems where none exist and neutralize awareness of serious plans by the modern nascent Sanhedrin to build a new temple in Jerusalem and renew the old Sinai covenant anticipated by the rabbis for the prophet Elijah to do as shown happening by the second beast/false prophet in Rev 13 when you understand the OT language being used (see studies on the blog atop my channel too lengthy to post here).
[End of thread]
This is another post I made in a youtube thread from 2022-08-15 on Dr Heiser’s channel. Entire thread, with many replies from others, was deleted or ghosted (unsurprisingly) shortly after I posted this follow-up to my earlier post countering a preterist argument where I pointed out there was no mention of an idol/abomination of desolation (as described in Revelation 13 and Daniel 11 & 12, and therefore was not fulfilled in 70 AD) as a reason Christ pronounced the woes upon the corrupt leaders of Judea for their deeds ending with ‘your house (temple) is being left to you desolate’ in Matthew 23. Then the respondent (“Jessie Lee”) asked if those wicked deeds were not abominations. Further clarification was provided to show the text is specifically referring to a physical idol, not simply wicked behavior:
I referred to an idol/abomination, or in Hebrew (shiqquts) “detestable thing” used to describe idols/images for instance in Ezekiel (Ezk 5.11, 8.10, 16.36, 20.7, etc). An ‘idol/statue of jealousy’ was also in the temple’s inner north gate by which the Israelites and the leadership committed abominations (Ezk 8.3-6) leading up to the desolation/ruin of the temple and city.
Shiqquts is the term used in Daniel 11.31 in the context of defiling the miqdash (sanctuary) which is used to describe the holy place and in 12.11 it is described as being set up after the sacrifices are turned away which also took place in the temple complex (this also shows the temple ministry will be reintroduced, see Temple Institute in Jerusalem for more info on these plans decades in the making with trained Levites ready to go once they find a proper red heifer to begin the process).
Rev 13 also describes an image/idol given life and able to speak (artificial intelligence?) and has power to punish those who don’t obey the [anti-christ] system. This did not take place in 70AD and the woes Christ pronounced in Mat 23 to the leaders of Judea ending with the declaration “your house (temple) is being left to you desolate” did not describe idolatry with an idol/image as any of the reasons for it. We would do well to warn others including those in Israel today of what is coming in what looks like the near future instead of blowing all of these important prophetic warnings off as incomprehensible or already fulfilled thus neutralizing any serious discussion and being left in the dark.
[End of thread]
Here’s a quick look at a couple of portions of scripture plainly showing that a pre-tribulation rapture is contraindicated in the bible, followed by a longer examination:
“But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light… and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.” [NOW COMES THE RAPTURE:] “And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.” (Mat 24.29-31)
The rapture is called a gathering together here as in 2Thessalonians:
“Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our GATHERING TOGETHER to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy [“falling away, defection, revolt, foresaking” cp usage in LXX of Jos 22.22, 2Ch 29.19, Jer 2.19; cf Syriac-Aramaic Peshitta NT: maruduta “rebellion”] comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed [for more on this see, The Spirit of Satan Made Flesh], the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that HE TAKES HIS SEAT IN THE TEMPLE of God, displaying himself as being God. Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?” (2Th 2.1-5)
Here’s a longer discussion with scriptures contraindicating a pretrib-rapture:
The issue isn’t whether or not there is a rapture (from the Latin “rapturo,” the Greek is “harpazo,” and Syriac-Aramaic is “khethap” in 1Th 4.17), only that the idea of a “pretribulation” rapture is not in the bible, and the great tribulation (also called the devil’s “great fury” Rev 12.12, the time cut short to 3.5 years) is not the same thing as God’s wrath. Without getting into personal feelings, we have the scriptures which clarifies this.
Rev 7.9 shows a great multitude from every nation, tribe, peoples, tongues in heaven and it says they came out of great “tribulation” (thlipsis) in Rev 7.14, you have to be in it to come out of it, and they are awaiting the Lord to deliver vengeance (Rev 6.9-10) on the earth; some are beheaded for their witness (“witness” is where we get the word “martyr” in Greek) of Christ and did not worship the false messiah/beast or take his mark (Rev 20.4).
Christ’s vengeance happens when He returns from heaven in wrath to judge the lawless (the law is for the lawless, 1Tim 1.9; the false prophet posing as Elijah will renew the old Sinai covenant laws/temple/sacrifices, in defiance of the new covenant, as anticipated by the rabbis, which in the Torah came with the name of the Lord spiritually marked in the hand and forehead as symbolized by the tefillin worn over the hand and forehead marked with the name Shaddai — only this will be a perversion of that with the false messiah set up as the Lord and those who do not submit will pay the price) at which time the resurrection and catching up/rapture occurs as Paul explained to the Thessalonians in 1Th 4.16-7, and also says:
“This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgement so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well WHEN the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire..”
The tares have long been setting up pretribbers for false expectations and disappointment, likely followed by disillusionment and loss of faith once faced with (great) tribulation as Christ taught in the parable of the sower, “the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, yet he has no root in himself but is temporary and when tribulation [thlipsis] or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away.” (Mat 13.20-1)
You also have Daniel speak of the false messiah waging war and overpowering/wearing out the saints until Christ returns (Dan 7.21-22, 25), this is part of the great tribulation, not God’s wrath. We see a preview of this event with believers facing this in Judea (not all, some escape heeding Christ’s warning of when to flee to the mountains Mat 24.15-21 = Rev 12.6); “And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony [“witness”] and they did not love their life even when faced with death.” (Rev 12.11)
“..whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel’s sake will save it.” (Mar 8.35)
“The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him. For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us.” (Rom 8.16-18)
Amen
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Related Posts:
The Spirit of Satan Made Flesh
The Woman of Revelation 12 and the War in Heaven
The Lake of Fire: Where Is it Located? (by Ernest Martin)
The Antichrist Kingdom for Dummies Vol. 1
who introduced the secularist crowd to the idea of a vulcan mind meld prepping you long ago to expect this global Oneness. See video “Robot Sex and the Holy of Holies” 
o p e n. t h e. m a t r i x 